Post by TheShadow on May 12, 2005 22:20:11 GMT -5
The Joker is going to be the new villain for part 2, as Goyer said. How would you guys like to see him protrayed and who's your pick to protray him? (Please, let's not turn this into a casting thread where all someone posts is "CRISPIN GLOVER FOR JOKER!")
If anything, the Joker is the most important, well known villian in the Batman mythos and is the one under most dispute in casting threads over the net. Not only that, but the interpretation of the Joker is also disputed over. Some want him to be more brutal and gruesome, while others want a fine blend of humor and horror. Some want to see his origin, some want his origin to remain a mystery. Some want him to be able to take Batman on in a fight, others want him to be more of a villian who fights with his mind than with his muscles.
So, here's my take on The Joker...
1. Should he be introduced via origin or without the origin and straight into Joker action?
IMO, we've already seen the origin before in B89 and the animated series(es). They were both well done and I don't see a way to be different. I think The Red Hood would look stupid onscreen. Take away The Red Hood, and you've got Batman encountering a regular crook and the crook falling in chemicals...we've seen that and I don't think there's a need to see it again. It's not as important to the Joker as the Wayne Murders are to Batman, at least not in my opinion.
So, I'd go for no origin in his first appearance...and maybe (just maybe) hint a little bit about how he got that way. Brubaker's "The Man Who Laughs" did that perfectly. Very vague in the origin details. But definitely start him out as The Joker.
I'm not entirely sure if I want to see The Killing Joke origin onscreen. The only advantage I see to it is that Joker and Batman are both shown as victims of tragedies and they are brought together as twisted reflections of the other. However, it does kind of make the audience more sympathetic toward Mr. J, which is not something I'd really want to see. Joker, to me, should be the villain of all villains; the epitome of the evil in Gotham City. There are enough tragic-origin villains as there is (mainly Two-Face, Mr. Freeze, and- if you use the animated series origin- Clayface).
2. Joker Motivation
He loves to kill. But why? I'd go with what Grant Morrison set up in Arkham Asylum. As said by Dr. Ruth Adams in that graphic novel
"The Joker seems to have no control over the sensory information he's receiving from the outside world. He can only cope with that chaotic barrage of input by going with the flow. That's why some days he's a mischievous clown, others a psychopathic killer. He has no real pesonality. He creates himself each day."
The world's a huge joke to him. His only way of reacting is to be a carefree psychopath on a killing spree.
3. Joker Personality
I definitely don't want a Nicholson impersonation. Not to say that he was bad as the Joker, but I want to see something different for the new Mr. J. I definitely want to see a Joker akin to the BTAS Joker, who was deadly and funny at the same time. The first time I saw MOTP, the man freaked me out more than Nicholson ever did. And when I saw it for the second time...I found him to be hilarious, yet still a formidable foe. The scene where Phantasm finds Valestra's dead body...that always gives me the CHILLS man. Valestra's face. Joker's voice talking about how Phantasm's remains will be found without a spleen or head.
You'd have to get a really good writer to pull this off. A Joker that can easily form a (good!!!) joke in response to whatever place or situation while enacting his crazy plans.
4. Joker's Physical Appearance
I'd like to see a Joker that's around the same height as Batman. One that's less muscular (obviously), but around the same build. Do I want to see a Joker than can take Batman on in a fight? Sure. He's been like that since his first appearance. In 1940, Batman even comments that he's now met his match in terms of fighting someone who can take him on in a fight. Let's not go too overboard with it though, like in "The Batman" animated show.
Let's see...green hair. Would you like it straight and slicked back like in his early appearances or would you like kinda curly like in The Long Halloween or Hush? I like the straight and slicked back look from 1940.
The smile. It's got to be big and somewhat scary looking. Prosthetics could be used around the cheeks and lips to maximize the effect. I wouldn't mind seeing prosthetic make-up on an actor (i..e. Dead End. I liked the make-up job, except for the eyebrows. Everything else was good, though). While on that...the laugh has to be good. Something that could chill your spine if you hear it when you're walking in a dark alley. Again, Hamill's laugh in BTAS was awesome.
The purple suit is a must. It's pretty much part of the character, like how wearing green is associated with Riddler. But you have to wonder why Kane and Robinson picked purple to be his suit color in the first place...
I wouldn't mind seeing Joker in a different suit. The black suit in B89 when he kills Ricorso looked quite cool.
5. Joker Plots
The most obvious plot to have him do in his first apperance is poison the city with his Joker Venom. This could be done in a variety of ways.
Still, Joker is capable of several other plots, done creatively and somewhat outlandishly. Classic Joker tales like "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge," "The Laughing Fish," and "The Sign of the Joker" have pretty standard tales of revenge, but with Joker...it's not always about the crime, it's about how to do the crime. He doesn't just shoot a guy out of revenge, he puts Joker Venom in the guy's drinking water or bargains the victim's life with his favorite nemesis...Batman. With the Joker, there should NEVER be a Joker story where you could easily fit in another character as the villian. He's that unique in his crimes and modus operandi.
6. Casting The Joker
I'd like somebody around Bale's age. A good age range, IMO, is between 30 to 45 years of age (or at least actors who can pass for being that old). The actor would have to be somewhat tall and believable looking. 5'10" is the shortest I'd accept Joker to be.
Now, more important than looks...acting. What I mainly look for in casting Joker is how believable he is when he's acting hyper and outright nuts. Can he play a believable psychopath or does he fail miserably and ends up making a fool out of himself? An actor who's able to play a good villain is not enough for me. The most important thing with a Joker actor, IMO, is him being believable, scary, and funny at the same time. I haven't seen this (yet) from popular choices like Crispin Glover, Lachy Hulme, and Jude Law.
As for my personal pick...Adrien Brody fits my criteria. 32 years old (about one year older than Bale). Tall at 6'1.5". From reading his IMDB bio, I'm convinced that he would dedicate himself to making this role work:
www.imdb.com/name/nm0004778/bio
Personally, I think he fits well into the current cast of respected actors who are known best by their acting abilities. The cast has famous people, but they're not simply any celebrities. These are Oscar-worthy actors and Brody definitely fits here.
Now, as for acting....he's got the laugh down. In The Village, he had this great Mark Hamill-esque laugh in the beginning. And from what I saw of the Oxygen trailer here:
videodetective.com/home.asp?PublishedID=504513
He can play quite a convincing psycho.
So...what's your take on The Joker for BB2?
If anything, the Joker is the most important, well known villian in the Batman mythos and is the one under most dispute in casting threads over the net. Not only that, but the interpretation of the Joker is also disputed over. Some want him to be more brutal and gruesome, while others want a fine blend of humor and horror. Some want to see his origin, some want his origin to remain a mystery. Some want him to be able to take Batman on in a fight, others want him to be more of a villian who fights with his mind than with his muscles.
So, here's my take on The Joker...
1. Should he be introduced via origin or without the origin and straight into Joker action?
IMO, we've already seen the origin before in B89 and the animated series(es). They were both well done and I don't see a way to be different. I think The Red Hood would look stupid onscreen. Take away The Red Hood, and you've got Batman encountering a regular crook and the crook falling in chemicals...we've seen that and I don't think there's a need to see it again. It's not as important to the Joker as the Wayne Murders are to Batman, at least not in my opinion.
So, I'd go for no origin in his first appearance...and maybe (just maybe) hint a little bit about how he got that way. Brubaker's "The Man Who Laughs" did that perfectly. Very vague in the origin details. But definitely start him out as The Joker.
I'm not entirely sure if I want to see The Killing Joke origin onscreen. The only advantage I see to it is that Joker and Batman are both shown as victims of tragedies and they are brought together as twisted reflections of the other. However, it does kind of make the audience more sympathetic toward Mr. J, which is not something I'd really want to see. Joker, to me, should be the villain of all villains; the epitome of the evil in Gotham City. There are enough tragic-origin villains as there is (mainly Two-Face, Mr. Freeze, and- if you use the animated series origin- Clayface).
2. Joker Motivation
He loves to kill. But why? I'd go with what Grant Morrison set up in Arkham Asylum. As said by Dr. Ruth Adams in that graphic novel
"The Joker seems to have no control over the sensory information he's receiving from the outside world. He can only cope with that chaotic barrage of input by going with the flow. That's why some days he's a mischievous clown, others a psychopathic killer. He has no real pesonality. He creates himself each day."
The world's a huge joke to him. His only way of reacting is to be a carefree psychopath on a killing spree.
3. Joker Personality
I definitely don't want a Nicholson impersonation. Not to say that he was bad as the Joker, but I want to see something different for the new Mr. J. I definitely want to see a Joker akin to the BTAS Joker, who was deadly and funny at the same time. The first time I saw MOTP, the man freaked me out more than Nicholson ever did. And when I saw it for the second time...I found him to be hilarious, yet still a formidable foe. The scene where Phantasm finds Valestra's dead body...that always gives me the CHILLS man. Valestra's face. Joker's voice talking about how Phantasm's remains will be found without a spleen or head.
You'd have to get a really good writer to pull this off. A Joker that can easily form a (good!!!) joke in response to whatever place or situation while enacting his crazy plans.
4. Joker's Physical Appearance
I'd like to see a Joker that's around the same height as Batman. One that's less muscular (obviously), but around the same build. Do I want to see a Joker than can take Batman on in a fight? Sure. He's been like that since his first appearance. In 1940, Batman even comments that he's now met his match in terms of fighting someone who can take him on in a fight. Let's not go too overboard with it though, like in "The Batman" animated show.
Let's see...green hair. Would you like it straight and slicked back like in his early appearances or would you like kinda curly like in The Long Halloween or Hush? I like the straight and slicked back look from 1940.
The smile. It's got to be big and somewhat scary looking. Prosthetics could be used around the cheeks and lips to maximize the effect. I wouldn't mind seeing prosthetic make-up on an actor (i..e. Dead End. I liked the make-up job, except for the eyebrows. Everything else was good, though). While on that...the laugh has to be good. Something that could chill your spine if you hear it when you're walking in a dark alley. Again, Hamill's laugh in BTAS was awesome.
The purple suit is a must. It's pretty much part of the character, like how wearing green is associated with Riddler. But you have to wonder why Kane and Robinson picked purple to be his suit color in the first place...
I wouldn't mind seeing Joker in a different suit. The black suit in B89 when he kills Ricorso looked quite cool.
5. Joker Plots
The most obvious plot to have him do in his first apperance is poison the city with his Joker Venom. This could be done in a variety of ways.
Still, Joker is capable of several other plots, done creatively and somewhat outlandishly. Classic Joker tales like "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge," "The Laughing Fish," and "The Sign of the Joker" have pretty standard tales of revenge, but with Joker...it's not always about the crime, it's about how to do the crime. He doesn't just shoot a guy out of revenge, he puts Joker Venom in the guy's drinking water or bargains the victim's life with his favorite nemesis...Batman. With the Joker, there should NEVER be a Joker story where you could easily fit in another character as the villian. He's that unique in his crimes and modus operandi.
6. Casting The Joker
I'd like somebody around Bale's age. A good age range, IMO, is between 30 to 45 years of age (or at least actors who can pass for being that old). The actor would have to be somewhat tall and believable looking. 5'10" is the shortest I'd accept Joker to be.
Now, more important than looks...acting. What I mainly look for in casting Joker is how believable he is when he's acting hyper and outright nuts. Can he play a believable psychopath or does he fail miserably and ends up making a fool out of himself? An actor who's able to play a good villain is not enough for me. The most important thing with a Joker actor, IMO, is him being believable, scary, and funny at the same time. I haven't seen this (yet) from popular choices like Crispin Glover, Lachy Hulme, and Jude Law.
As for my personal pick...Adrien Brody fits my criteria. 32 years old (about one year older than Bale). Tall at 6'1.5". From reading his IMDB bio, I'm convinced that he would dedicate himself to making this role work:
www.imdb.com/name/nm0004778/bio
Personally, I think he fits well into the current cast of respected actors who are known best by their acting abilities. The cast has famous people, but they're not simply any celebrities. These are Oscar-worthy actors and Brody definitely fits here.
Now, as for acting....he's got the laugh down. In The Village, he had this great Mark Hamill-esque laugh in the beginning. And from what I saw of the Oxygen trailer here:
videodetective.com/home.asp?PublishedID=504513
He can play quite a convincing psycho.
So...what's your take on The Joker for BB2?
