The Official B89 Discussion Thread

[TheShadow]

I'm curious what people here think of the previous films, so I've started this thread for discussion on...just about anything regarding the movie.

It was one of my favorite films as a kid. I saw it almost daily.

Reading some boards out there...it seems that it's getting more and more underrated as BB comes closer to release. Sure, Keaton doesn't physically match Bruce Wayne as much as Christian Bale does. And B89 didn't cover the origin as much in depth as BB will. But I still think that it deserves credit for making Batman cool again and establishing to the Average Joe that Batman is a dark character.

As for the film itself, it does have its flaws, I admit. Sometimes little things (Joker taking down the Batwing with a single shot, thugs being at the cathedral- how did they get there?). Sometimes big things (I still feel a bit detached from Keaton's Wayne mainly 'cause the film doesn't focus on him as much).

I have to say, though, that it does have A LOT of things from the comics from all eras- not just TDKR and TKJ, but also the comics from 1939 as well as in the '60's and '70's. If you want me to go more in depth, I definitely will. I just get annoyed when I read common complaints that B89 "just wasn't Batman" or "It wasn't anything like the comics": it may not be your personal take on Batman, but it definitely had qualities of Batman that have been in the comics for decades, there's no denying that. I'm all for personal preference on the Dark Knight, but a good 80% of the film was faithful to the comics and the remaining 20% of changes are no bigger than the changes Nolan's making for BB.

I also have to say that Anton Furst's Gotham City was amazing and something that I will miss in BB.

[ripper48]

As I've said on BoF, I will miss nothing from B89, since I think BB will match it or surpass it in every possible way...

But that's not to say I don't still rate B89 very highly.

B89 is a movie I grew up on. It's the first ever movie I remember watching, and I remember watching it time and time again, day after day. I remember loving to wear high, polar neck sweaters because of Keaton's Wayne, tying a blanket to my neck, and running around the room like mad, and, of course, trying to act and talk like Keaton, being sort of quiet and absent-minded, and talking with a low, deep whisper from time to time.

I didn't read many, if any, comics, so B89 truly was my introduction to Batman, and it is definitely the reason why I like Batman.

To be honest with you, I couldn't care less about its flaws, if it has any. Sure, the Vale-Wayne relationship could have been a bit stronger, maybe the origin could have been better explained (IE: How did this guy get to be what he is? Sure, his parents were killed, but how does Wayne become different from any other orphan?), but it's so deeply implanted in my mind as a film that shaped my childhood, and my appreciation for films (along with "The Terminator" and "Terminator 2: Judgment Day" of all movies! ), and my desire to work in the film-making business in the future, that I couldn't care less about its flaws. Its flaws are what make the movie still magical to me. I love B89, am not afraid to admit it, and definitely do not have the need to bash it to feel good about BB.

The fact is, that the reason I feel so confident about BB is probably because I've read the script, and have seen and read every piece of information I could about it. I just know BB will do for this generation what B89 did for the last one. Bale's approach, along with Goyer's script and Nolan's genius film-making mind is what makes this movie appeal to me so much.

I know that now, since I'm learning basic film-making and film history at School, and I know that this is what I want to do with my life, and since the story and talent is, arguably, better than B89, I will enjoy it as much as B89, if not more.

But no matter how much I love BB, B89 will ALWAYS have a special place in my heart. I suppose that for me it was a life-changing movie. It gave me a character that I have loved ever since, and it planted the seeds of love towards the art that I wish to create when I'm a bit older, and when I get the chance.

[Tragic Past]

I loved B89 and I still love it to this day. Before B89, I had only seen the 60's television show and I didn't realize how dark of a character he was. After B89, I officially caught the bug. The movie itself stimulated my imagination in a way no other film has ever done for me. From the summer of 89 on, I was fascinated with the character of Batman.....and I now had my ideal hero.

Speaking of the film itself, I loved it for years and saw nothing but quality. The approach of the story was to me, everything it should be. That was untill 2003, I finally got into the assorted Batman graphic novels and then became conflicted as to which was the true version of Batman....and which one I liked better?

To this day I still can't answer that, as I like both for different reasons. But B89 had its time to shine. I loved both Keaton's performance and Nicholsons. Granted at times the story line wasn't as close as it was to the comics, or the Vale relationship came across as stale, it was with out a doubt the greatest Batman saga seen on screen thus far. Visually it was outstanding as well, and will go down as a) The first movie I saw in theatres and b) The movie that got me into the character of Batman. I couldn't have asked for a better introduction to the character, and I have NOTHING negative to say about it, because as it stands the movie alone is synonymous with my childhood.

Though we are on the verge of possibly getting the most complete, and iconic Bat film, Batman 1989 will always have a place etched in my heart, always...

[UrbanLegend]

I found interesting that one of the major reasons why this particular film was made was because the lined up Jack Nicholson, an A-list star to play the Joker. WB were very nervous about a big budget Batman movie, but it worked out in the end.

And the fact is without B89, there would not be a Begins.

I agree that B89 really is becoming more underrated because of Begins, and while it is obvious Begins will be a superior Batman film, does not discredit the entertainment value of Batman ('89). Of course every comic film had some slight differences from the comics, but at least Keaton Batman didn't make organic Batarangs from his wrists... just joking.

[Tragic Past]

admin said:

I found interesting that one of the major reasons why this particular film was made was because the lined up Jack Nicholson, an A-list star to play the Joker. WB were very nervous about a big budget Batman movie, but it worked out in the end.

And the fact is without B89, there would not be a Begins.

I agree that B89 really is becoming more underrated because of Begins, and while it is obvious Begins will be a superior Batman film, does not discredit the entertainment value of Batman ('89). Of course every comic film had some slight differences from the comics, but at least Keaton Batman didn't make organic Batarangs from his wrists... just joking.

I completely agree.

[TheShadow]

I rewatched B89 last night and relived the magic. Batman Begins rarely crossed my mind as I was watching it. They're just so different and so good when they stand on their own.

Later though, I came to decide that there were five things that Burton and company did that I will always love and prefer over what Nolan and company did:

1. Gotham City
I have always been in love with Anton Furst's Gotham City with its dirty gray buildings. Now, I know that Crowley's Gotham City didn't seem just like an ordinary city. I also know that frequent interpretations of the city in the comics and the animated serieses make them look like normal cities. But live action cinema is a different thing for me. Furst's set designs are a perfect cross between the abnormal and the normal, just like Batman- he could very well exist, but the very notion of his existence would be weird in the real world. It's hard to explain, but hopefully you get my drift. In my mind, Anton Furst's Gotham will always be the cinematic home of the live action Batman.

2. The Batsuit and Bat Gear
Although the one in Begins is lighter and more flexible...I couldn't help but gape at just how cool the B89 suit was. The cowl was awesome. The cape draped over the shoulders (Now I understand the cape clasp complaints). And it seemed to work well in the fight scenes anyways. Batman didn't seem awkward or stiff at all. Without the B89 Batsuit, we wouldn't have had the BB Batsuit. And for my personal visual taste, I rate the B89 Batsuit slightly above the BB Batsuit.
Now, as for Bat Gear, I'm talking about batarangs and the grappling gun. Part of it is because I prefer their designs in B89 and part of it is because I just prefer them to be black instead of bronze. The batarangs from B89, to me, look more like the ones Batman frequently uses in the comics. The grappling gun looked lighter and less awkward than the Blade Runner type of one in BB. Batman could easily access it from his belt. He didn't have to reach over and grab it.

For the record, I can't compare the two Batmobiles. They're just too different, and I'm glad they are. Anton Furst's Batmobile is awesome looking and definitely the best if you want to compare live action Batmobiles to the comic book Batmobiles. Nathan Crowley's Tumbler is awesome looking in a different way and it's something that I'd use to run over things that were in my way. I chuckled in B89 when the Batmobile had to stop in front of that crane because I knew that if Batman used the Tumbler, he would've just gone through it.

3. The Score
I prefer the Elfman style score for Batman instead of the one by Zimmer and Howard. Certain cues went with certain things. Everything just made sense and people walked out of the theater able to recognize the Batman theme if they ever heard it again. With Zimmer and Howard, it was a different ballgame and I personally didn't like their approach. As I listen to their score now...it's sounds really good. But I don't really think of Batman. I think of Gladiator or some big action film. I've also brought this up before but there really aren't definitive cues unless one truly thinks about each scene that the cue was played in and tries to loosely tie them together. With Elfman's score, each cue just seems to fit into a Batman film. One can recognize the themes for each character. Batman's. The Bruce-Vicki love theme. The crazy themes of the Joker. Overall, Elfman's score sounds, to me, darker, less heroic-sounding, and more Bat-appropriate than Zimmer and Howard's score.

4. The Wayne Murder
I really didn't care much for how the Wayne murders were done in Batman Begins. The quick cuts definitely distracted me from the horror of the situation. Let's compare:

Burton shows us the Wayne family coming out of the theater. We can immediately tell that all of them are happy.
Nolan has the Wayne family come out of the back (or side) entrance of the opera house. And man, it's a really dirty neighborhood for being right next to a sophisticated opera house. But oh well, I guess it could happen.

Burton definitely did a great way of leading up to the murders. The shot of the Wayne family's feet walking in succession...followed by the feet of Napier and his friend walking in sucession- that has to be one of the creepiest parts of the film, to me. As we follow the Waynes, Thomas gleefully takes popcorn from his son's bag and the whole family laughs. We may not have been given that much of a glimpse of Thomas Wayne in B89, but there is a significant glimpse to show that he was kind and loving family man.
Nolan has us see Joe Chill quickly walk up to them. Now, you could say that Nolan did it more realistically by having us experience the murders just as Bruce experienced them- an unexpected visit from Chill. Quick shots from the gun and suddenly Thomas and Martha Wayne are dead.
I, however, prefer Burton's horror-movie type of lead-in. We know what's going to happen and that lead-in makes us afraid to see it happen.

As for the murder itself, it's all clear and creepy to me. Jack Napier and his friend corner the Waynes. There's a creepy silence until Jack's friend grabs Martha's pearl necklace. Thomas intervenes and Jack shoots him for trying to be a hero. Jack then shoots Martha for screaming. The pearls scatter on the floor along with spilt popcorn. The hollow sounds here are simply awesome and add to the effect.
Nolan's murder was pretty frantic. Instead of a cold blooded killer like Jack Napier or the other versions of the mugger, Joe Chill is a nervous twitchy guy. This is probably his first time trying to rob somebody. In his nervousness, he drops the wallet that Thomas gives him. And then when he asks for jewelry, Thomas intervenes. Dr. Wayne doesn't really do anything to warrant getting shot besides standing in front of Martha. And since Joe Chill is a nervous twitchy guy...he shoots Thomas. And then grabs Martha's necklace (it's a one second shot. I'm not even sure if the audience around me caught it) before shooting her for screaming. He then just runs off.
Now, for me, two aspects of Nolan's interpretation paled when compared to Burton's. The Waynes in Batman Begins are killed by a nervous, desperate bum. The Waynes in B89 are killed by a coldblooded killer who even smiles at Bruce after killing the Waynes. Now, I don't give a crap if it's Joe Chill or Jack Napier: the latter version of the killer is a much better representation of evil in Gotham City than a desperate bum who makes a mistake. Someone who sparks the rage within Bruce that fuels him to eventually become The Dark Knight.
The second aspect is that Nolan shows us the pearl necklace before the murders. It's a big deal, right? But when Chill asks for them and eventually grabs them, it's done in such a big way that the average audience could hardly pick up on the fact that the Waynes were killed over the pearl necklace that they saw earlier. If it was done much slower, I wouldn't have had a problem with it.

5. The Love Story
For the record, I love the character of Rachel Dawes and her effect on Bruce. That said...there were two scenes of her that I didn't think were thought up very well from the script standpoint. The first scene is when she's talking to Bruce at the hotel. She clearly wants him to do something with all his money. I'm not sure exactly what she wants him to do. Use his money and social standing to influence people to rise against Falcone? Not do business with Falcone, which he's already not doing? Or maybe just be a responsible guy? Oh well, I can fill in the blanks easily, but this next part is where I have a big problem...
The very last scene between Bruce and Rachel. Throughout the film, they're like brother and sister. Here, we've got the romance angle and Rachel's rejection of Bruce. But why does she reject him? It didn't make sense to me. Throughout the film, she wants Bruce to do SOMETHING to stand up against corruption. And now that she knows that he is doing something...she rejects him? And all this time she's been in love with "the man who vanished." As in...the vengeful hateful guy who tried to get revenge by killing Joe Chill? The guy that she got pissed off at and even slapped? I know that girls love the bad boys, but that just goes too far...

Everything about the Vicki-Bruce relationship made sense to me. Vicki is an attractive photojournalist who is not only interested in Batman, but who has also seen the terrible tragedies of deaths in war. Bruce connects with her in that way and he also intrigues her by how mysterious he is. As Frank Miller put it, the more he talks to her, the less she knows about him. She can see right through him and tell that he's not who he seems to be. She investigates him and tries to keep calling him. She eventually figures out, on her own, that he's Batman (Smart girl). Then, she goes into the Batcave (no, Alfred didn't just let her in to make her find out, she knew beforehand). This scene between her and Bruce has always been somewhat touching for me. It strips down the layers of the Batman character and shows that underneath the Batsuit...is simply a man who cares about others. The love talk is definitely better than the conversation in BB, IMO. Batman is a conflict between Vicki and Bruce. He knows he can't save the city and have her. She wants him to step away from the darkness ("It doesn't have to be a perfect world."). She wants them to "try to love each other." It's beautiful and, dare I say, a much more realistic interpretation of how Bruce would deal with a girl who loves him.

Three little things that I liked better:
1. The Joker card: Sorry for nit picking but I love the one that Jack Napier sees right before Alicia comes through the elevator. It LOOKS like The Joker and resembles the Bob Kane Joker card. The one in Batman Begins looks like a generic Joker card. It doesn't look at all like the Joker himself, unless he's going to look like a small jester in the sequel. I think that his face on the Joker card simply adds to the vanity and arrogance of the character.
2. The Fight Scenes: I hated the quick cuts, especially at the end. Nolan's inexperience is not really an excuse, IMO. Burton didn't have any experience with action films either, yet all of his fight scenes were clean and cool.
3. The Bat Signal: Burton's Bat Signal rocks. Like the fight scenes, it was pretty clear and pleasing to the eye. Nolan's Bat Signal was...very hazy. Not too clear at all.

Now, I liked A LOT of things in BB better than B89...but you guys can guess all of them.

Still, B89 will always be the first Batman film that introduced me to the world of Batman. BB will always be the Batman film I waited years for...and felt that it was worth it.

[batmanrules33]

gotta agree with shadow, B89 seriiously kicks ass. batman returns too. they both are the best. BB is good as a stand alone film, but B89 and BR bring back the best memories for me. oh, and thank you for letting me know your not the shadow from SSH, i really thought you were. would you mind at all if i used your whole B89 -BB"essay" on SSH? its very very good!!

[TheShadow]

^ Thanks.

Yeah, we've had some interesting things about that. I honestly didn't know that there was such a person at SHH when I first registered here. Thus, I've left that in my sig to inform SHH/BatNation posters.

Go ahead and use it on SHH. Make sure you put your own comments on it though, lol.

[batmanrules33]

lol, thanks alot, its a very good read and should be a good argumant against burton haters, lol. burton rules!

[TheShadow]

Give me a link when you post it. I am curious to read the reactions to it.

[gianakin]

Still one of my fav movies from many aspects.I just like Begins so much more.But I get annoyed when people use the B89 movie to bash Begins,all of a sudden B89 became a cult classic,when not nearly as many people as now bothered some years ago(not to this degree anyway).I hope you get what I'm saying,it's not that I don't love this movie,but...

[TheShadow]

Honestly, I've barely seen any "using B89 to bash Begins." If anything, I've seen way too much of "Begins was perfect. The previous films sucked" which is one of the reasons why I posted that list above. Begins is a better movie, but there were definitely some parts in it that I didn't like that I thought B89 did better.

I guess I have the opposite problem- I love Batman Begins a lot, but I hate how suddenly it's "the one true Batman film" and the previous films are just "Elseworld interpretations."
There's this thread at BOF in which posters grade the previous films before and after seeing Batman Begins. I honestly don't understand that mentality- the previous films should be just as good (or bad-depending on what you originally thought) as they were when they were first released. Even if it's a better movie, Begins shouldn't change a thing about those opinions. If one liked B89 back then, why would one suddenly hate it after watching Batman Begins?
The previous films have just as much merit as being a Batman film as Begins does.

[gianakin]

I couldn't agree more.Both the opposite sides are extreme.I was more referring to critics of my country(Greece),so it figures you haven't seen much of that.I say B89 is still where it was,but Begins is just much better in my book.Nothing's changed at all,apart from that.