BATMAN BEGINS Spoilers Discussion Thread

[Tragic Past]

Discuss the script here, and anything you would like to contribute to conversation about BEGINS. WARNING this thread is allowed to be Spoiler Heavy, so if you don't want to participate in reading and sharing opinions about in depth analysis of the BEGINS script and movie, I suggest you leave this thread.

BEGIN discussion (pun intended) ;D

I myself will not be participating as I have yet to read the script. But if I get requests through pm, I will be able to post it on here for fans to download.

[ripper48]

*WARNING: HEAVY SPOILERS*

So...where do we begin?

First, the script kicks ass.

How surprised were you that Ducard turned out to be Ra's, and how cool is it that Liam Neeson will end up being Ra's? (Though it is a shame that we won't get to see that much of Watanabe...more on that in a moment.)

I was surprised to see that Ducard turned out to be Ra's, (I had to re-read that part to see if I understood it right ) but then I remembered when Liam Neeson was cast the reports said he was signed on as Ra's...and a day later it was changed to Ducard...slight mess up by WB, that wasn't picked up by nearly everyone.

The only real problem with the script is the ending when Bruce suggests that he can give up being Batman for Rachel...though as this is Batman in his early days, perhaps Bruce does feel that he can rid the city of evil once, and end it, quit being Batman...plus, as there seem to be plenty of changes of dialogue made by Nolan, and also a few additions (the training scenes, namely the one where Bruce is on the poles being beaten from the 2nd trailer) perhaps this small point will be altered too.

And back to Watanabe...Jett from BoF said that there may be a "twist to the twist"...so how do I interpret this? Ducard/Ra's/Neeson dies...I'm not suggesting he somehow survives riding the train off a rail. BUT...what if after the train goes down, and everyone seems to be happy, and Batman saves the day...we have a shot of someone on a bridge, or on a roof high up...who just looks on at the wreckage and mayhem in Gotham...and that man turns out to be Ken Watanabe...and he just smiles to himself and walks away...see what I'm getting at? A twist to the twist. Was Ducard really Ra's? Was Ken Watanabe really killed? Was Watanabe really not Ra's? We don't have to know at this point...we just see him smiling to himself, looking on, and walking away...

[TheShadow]

Haven't read the script, but I'm very familiar with the twist. I honestly wasn't surprised when I found out. First, the casting news screw-up. And then, Liam looking more like Ra's than Watanabe. Honestly, I'm very happy. Liam Neeson was my #1 choice for the role since before Begins was in production and I was, at first, disappointed that he wasn't Ra's but then...hehe.

My criticism so far is that they should've really done a better job covering the twist. Not only did they screw up the casting, but the script leaked online AND, most of all, Ken Watanabe doesn't even look like Ra's. My friends pointed it out and all I said to them was "Yeah, but he will rock in this role." I think that they should've had Ken keep his hair and maybe gray the sides. And have him speak English in the film (then again, he does speak English in footage that was shown at one of the conventions, so who knows), yet have him keep the accent just to retain the element of an ancient martial arts master. That way, he'd look more like Ra's.

As for the Bruce-Rachel thing...I haven't read the script, but the relationship between them would have to be VERY strong for me to accept him saying that. Then again, it is the first draft...who knows what differences Chris Nolan made in rewrites. Heck, he's even listed before David Goyer in the credits on the bottom of the posters.

[UrbanLegend]

Ducard is Ra's ?!?




Just joking.

[TheShadow]

What did you guys think about the way they handled Joe Chill? I thought it was perfect, from what I read about it. When dealing with Joe Chill, you'd have to deal with whether or not Batman would kill him or not and if that would go against Batman's morals and if that would stop him from crimefighting. In BB, Joe Chill is already seen as the killer before Bruce Wayne even becomes Batman. Chill is used, I'd guess you'd say, as a plot device to teach Bruce:
a) injustice in Gotham City. Not everybody is brought to justice based on the law. This is essential to leading Bruce to Batman because...wouldn't Bruce have considered being a policeman or detective before being a vigilante? He couldn't have just said to himself when he was eight years old, on the streets with his dead parents, that he was going to be a vigilante. In the comics, Bruce even tried to be part of the FBI, but didn't like all the paperwork involved.
b) killing as a form of revenge is wrong. Also essential to Batman that he doesn't intentionally kill others (then again...he blows up the monastery and...he only saves himself on that train at the end, I think. Maybe since we don't see any corpses, it's assumed that nobody died ;D). Anyways, I always wondered how Bruce dealt with killing in his early years and deciding to keep all forms of human life alive.

You've also got a perfect blend of the past protrayals of Joe Chill, who was introduced as the killer of the Waynes in Batman #47. Bruce Wayne wanting to kill Chill with a gun is from Batman: Year Two. Joe Chill being killed by the mob before Batman could get to him is from Detective Comics #235 (Chill was killed by his own thugs in #47 when he told them that he created the Batman. The one in #235 doesn't have Batman involved and is the closest to Chill's death in BB).

[MasterBat]

Personally,I loved it.

By the time I got done reading,it took awhile for the smile to come off of my face.I was overjoyed,because I knew,for the first time,That Batman was FINALLY gonna be done right.

My favorite parts were some between Ducard and Bruce.

"Theatricality and Deception are powerful weapons."

I think Goyer handled Ducards dialouge perfectly,for a mentor like character.

The swordfight on the ice was a good scene aswell.

But,one of the BEST parts was definatley this:

"What in Gods name are you?"

"Im Batman."

I could've dropped dead reading that.Never in a MILLION years would I have thought that they would use that line,but they did.

That line was apart of my first introduction to Batman,so its kinda special for me,in that sense.

So....I hope Nolan kept that particular line in the re-writes.

The end was good,although it never made much sense to me,even in Year One,cause we never saw Batman take down The Red Hood.

I think they might change it,although it would be an awesome easter egg,for the fans.

(For those who dont know what Im talking about,its the bit where Gordon hands Batman the Joker card.)

The Batmobile chase.......well......lets just say that I REALLY wanna see it.

Rachel was a nice addition,and I think she actually has more of a meaning than the other love intrests of the past four films.

Overall,Im pretty psyched Batman Begins.

[ripper48]

TheShadow said:

What did you guys think about the way they handled Joe Chill? I thought it was perfect, from what I read about it. When dealing with Joe Chill, you'd have to deal with whether or not Batman would kill him or not and if that would go against Batman's morals and if that would stop him from crimefighting. In BB, Joe Chill is already seen as the killer before Bruce Wayne even becomes Batman. Chill is used, I'd guess you'd say, as a plot device to teach Bruce:
a) injustice in Gotham City. Not everybody is brought to justice based on the law. This is essential to leading Bruce to Batman because...wouldn't Bruce have considered being a policeman or detective before being a vigilante? He couldn't have just said to himself when he was eight years old, on the streets with his dead parents, that he was going to be a vigilante. In the comics, Bruce even tried to be part of the FBI, but didn't like all the paperwork involved.
b) killing as a form of revenge is wrong. Also essential to Batman that he doesn't intentionally kill others (then again...he blows up the monastery and...he only saves himself on that train at the end, I think. Maybe since we don't see any corpses, it's assumed that nobody died ;D). Anyways, I always wondered how Bruce dealt with killing in his early years and deciding to keep all forms of human life alive.

You've also got a perfect blend of the past protrayals of Joe Chill, who was introduced as the killer of the Waynes in Batman #47. Bruce Wayne wanting to kill Chill with a gun is from Batman: Year Two. Joe Chill being killed by the mob before Batman could get to him is from Detective Comics #235 (Chill was killed by his own thugs in #47 when he told them that he created the Batman. The one in #235 doesn't have Batman involved and is the closest to Chill's death in BB).

I thought you said you didn't read the script. So you just spoiled yourself silly, eh?

I thought the way Chill was dealt with was very good. I read that Burton had planned the original series to be a trilogy, and that he acts the way he does (careless, killing everyone) in Returns because he killed his parents' killer, and he's losing his motivation, and Forever was meant to be Batman's redemption. (And it sort of worked out that way.......slightly. If the "red book" sub plot hadn't been cut, and if the "you're a killer too" sub plot was in there, it would have worked better), so I think that Begins straight out dealt with it well. First of all, it's faithful. Joe Chill killed Wayne's parents...but he best part is the way that his chance to avenge them was taken away. (I wonder how many people know what the synopsis was talking about when it mentioned that he has his chance to avenge them taken away.)

So, yeah, I thought the way Chill was dealt with was great. It means Bruce can't lose his motivation to fight crime in the way that he did in the previous series. It shows Bruce that Chill was only the product of a bigger corruption in Gotham, which links to Falcone, and after he returns to Gotham, links to Scarecrow and to Ra's. Besides, that's one of the best parts imo. The way stuff connects and intertwines is great in the script. The way the connections between Al Ghul, down to Flass are made...The way stuff you never notice becomes important. (The flower Bruce is asked to bring, the one that is crushed and causes Bruce to see bats and makes his head spin a bit in his final training session, is the same flower that is creates the fear gas.) The lines, though cliched, sound so perfect when said in the script. It makes sense. It's just an awesome script.

I'll disagree with you MasterBruce about one tiny bit...Rachel isn't and can't be as good as Selina Kyle from Returns. She doesn't connect with him as well as that. (And I wouldn't expect her to either)

But yeah, she's definitely the best written female except for Selina, and she does have a role in this, not only as a damsel in distress. Greggbray from BoF explained the relationships and people in Returns to be mirrors of one another. And I think that the way it plays out in Begins, the people Bruce meets, in one way or another, while may not mirror him, definitely do add to his personality, and add a different piece to the overall puzzle of who is Batman. And Rachel plays into that very well. Not to mention that I think she could turn out even better than expected because Nolan seems to have made a few dialogue changes. The dialogue at the end of the first draft was fine, but the new dialogue we heard from her in one of the T.V spots ("the man I loved, who vanished, never came back") sounds a lot better and meaningful that the small dialogue bits that were in the first draft. Perhaps not better, but it definitely expands on what was written in the first draft.

Oh, and Joker's cameo owns Joker's cameo in Year One. ;D

[TheShadow]

Still haven't read it, but I admit that I have it on my computer and I read parts of it, including the part where Joe Chill is shot.

I like your observations about other characters being reflections of him. I'm hoping that this one is just as symbolism-heavy as Batman Returns.

Joker cameo? I thought you just see the card at the end. But yeah, the Joker cameo in Year One was useless and meaningless.

Is there a reason why Harvey Dent isn't in this? Too many characters?

[ripper48]

TheShadow said:

I'm hoping that this one is just as symbolism-heavy as Batman Returns.

Joker cameo? I thought you just see the card at the end. But yeah, the Joker cameo in Year One was useless and meaningless.

Is there a reason why Harvey Dent isn't in this? Too many characters?

I believe it definitely will surprise people who think this will be simply the action hero movie version of Batman. It's a very smart script as it is, and with Nolan touching it up, and with Nolan at the helm as director, I'm sure it will have many different deep and interesting aspects. I mean, you've seen Memento, right? How can he not make something interesting?

Yeah, that's the Joker cameo, the card...it still is a better cameo than the one from Year One..."you're joking"

Why isn't Harvey Dent in it...? Who knows. In Goyer's first draft he's mentioned once, by name, and that's it. I've got no idea why he isn't a character in the film. There isn't an actual need for him, so you won't notice that he isn't there, but it is a bit odd that this "Finch" guy is there instead of him as D.A...if Nolan re-worked some of his dialogue, made him less of a sissy at times, and re-worked his relationships with the characters around him, Finch could be easily changed to Dent. In fact, Larry Holden, who plays Finch, was rumored once to play Dent, but that was probably because Finch is the D.A in Begins...though, maybe they're going to pull a "Ducard = Ra's/Finch = Dent" on us when the movie opens ...

Anyway...I've got no idea why he isn't in the script, though it isn't that important, and I can't see what role he could have played in the film...though with Nolan's re-writes, go figure...

It's obvious though that the way it's going to play out is that Dent will be introduced in BB2, with the Joker being the main villain, and by the end of BB2, he'll be a fully fledged character ready to receive a dosage of acid to the face. And in 3 he'll be the main villain. From the not so subtle hints given by Jett, and by simple speculation, it's quite obvious that this is the road they're taking. And it's a good one.

[TheShadow]

Yeah, I saw Memento. I believe in Nolan. .

Okay, just checking to see that that was what you meant by the Joker cameo. Hopefully that carries over to film. I agree, it perfectly sets up the sequel.

I'm skeptical about Finch. He seems to be a poor Dent replacement to me. I was hoping that he'd be corrupt so that...you know, that would be the reason for Dent's absence. Oh well.

[ripper48]

Nope, Finch is a good guy...at least in the leaked draft...a bit of a sorry sissy at times, only getting involved and excited when he hears there's actual good news (though, in a town as bent as Gotham, can you blame him?), and Rachel does most of the digging for him. (Thanks to Batman of course. )

Who knows, maybe in the sequel to "finally bring down the drug/mob network", they'll bring in Dent as D.A.

[darknight113]

I'd like to see a "Long Halloween" adaptation for the sequel. At least as far as the Dent / Gordon / Batman alliance to bring down organized crime, as supervillains get involved and it ends with Dent's stressful dive into madness that results in his transformation into Two-Face

[thebat=vengeance]

hey yu guys could you tell me where the aronofsky/miller script is cause I can't find it. I can't find the general discussin board and I can't find it on other places. Could anyone tell me where to find it or just give me the file, that would be great.

[thebat=vengeance]

oops... found it in the Batcave. and also Im confused about the Ra's twist. Who's Ras aarrrgghhh

[TheShadow]

Well, it's preferrable that you wait until June 17, but if you must know, scroll down....










As far as the first draft goes, Ken Watanabe's character is not Ra's Al Ghul, but simply a decoy. The real Ra's Al Ghul is actually Ducard and controls things as Watanabe's character pretends to be the head guy.

The movie is rumored to have a twist to the twist, which might complicate things a bit between those two characters. We'll have to see what they come up with.